Religious Discussions and Different Perspectives

A recent discussion of Facebook provoked this discussion which is entirely focused on a "dilemma" for Christians who feel there are difficulties interpreting scripture when people cannot agree on what such passages or stories require of us. This is true of all religions and is repeated here to illustrate the challenge all people of faith encounter when their historical documents seem inconsistent with their current principles. As always, discussion and comments are welcomed here or on Facebook.

Facebook Discussion Bible Study (Circa April 24, 2015)


Posting by David Whitlock (No relation) quotes Marcus Borg: "When there is a conflict between Jesus and the Bible, Jesus trumps the Bible."

Wendy Lynne Efird: Jesus trumps Paul! Jesus trumps Levitical Law! Jesus trumps the religious leaders! Love your neighbor! It isn't rocket science!

Linda Phillips Richard: That's great in theory. But when what we know about Jesus, especially what he said, comes from the Bible, when there are 4 Gospel accounts in the Bible and each is slightly different how can we be certain what Jesus said. For Instance was the Sermon on the Mount of Matthew more accurate than the Sermon on the Plain in Luke? Though similar each is slightly different in recording what Jesus said. And since these are likely a combination from His teachings perhaps neither is.

David Whitlock: You ask good questions, Linda. Maybe an ordained will come along and answer. My favorite was, was there one or two angels at the tomb? (Nothing red letter there, if memory serves)

Robin Whitlock This may seem confusing but it is not. Like any other piece of a good literature or history we will look for a common thread that runs throughout all versions, all reports, all research. In ethics we talked about looking at the principle behind the rule. In scriptural studies we learn that to truly exegete the word we have to look for continuity from several areas: Cultural, Social, Legal, Ethical, Communal. and on and on. There is a woven fabric about the Scriptures. This is especially true of the New Testament. Jesus repeats the summary of the law in several versions and like one person stated before this comment it is a summary of the law that is the central and foundational principle of everything Jesus taught. "Love the Creator and love your neighbor". On these two principles depend all the laws and the wisdom of the prophets. All else is but details, matters of style rather than substance.

Linda Phillips Richard: I don't disagree with anything you said Robin. I do however take issue with the false dichotomy of the original quote from Borg. It is presumptuous to think that we can separate the life and teachings of Jesus from the Bible.

Roger Cary:  Okay, I am not ordained but for my two-cents worth I would say that when one looks at the four gospel accounts we need to recognize that the first one written is Mark's gospel. Each approach is based on one's particular understanding which speaks to their background and personal attitudes. When I take all four together I see a consistent theme running through them as expressed by John (1 John 4:7-21). The understanding of this type of love is best expressed by St. Paul and can be found in 1 Cor. 13. The argument about which "Sermon on the Mount" is more factual is in reality a moot point as both evangelists (like us today) have access to so much information they choose what is important to them. The very word "Christian" means to be a follower of Christ who was, and is, Jesus, the annointed one of God. Okay, that is my take as a LLP who is finishing up seminary. And that's all I got to say about that.

Kelly Stenglein: Doesn't seem to make much sense. There is no conflict between Jesus and the Bible...They are one in the same.
April 25 at 8:24pm · Like · 1

Dan Held: Good theology on this issue, and i do believe Borg raises a real issue here, can be found in Adam Hamilton's "Making Sense of the Bible." Robin puts it well also in noting how it was Jesus made sense of the Hebrew Bible; he exegeted it to perfection; e.g., MT 7:12 and the "Golden Rule." Main point for me is knowing that while the Bible reveals Jesus to us, only Jesus fully reveals God to us.

David Whitlock: Kelly, the argument is with Marcus Borg, the Episcopal priest. I use FB as a University for a teacher of OT and NT that has not gone to seminary. Kelly, can you see all the comments in this thread from the pastors who have commented. Trust you know how to see their backgrounds, do you know of UMC pastor Adam Hamilton, alluded to above? I have counted 9 pastors above who "liked" the Borg comment. Not arguing, but, it might be instructive . . .

Robin Whitlock I think Borg was postulating a straw opponent. We have all had frustrating discussions with pharisaic prooftexting personalities who appear to contradict the "principles" or thread I mentioned earlier with short quotes from, perhaps, Leviticus, and we recognize the multilayered cultural bias embedded in such a passage. Jesus addressed these same attitudes many times. Thus to the strict unenlightened application of the law, he is reported to have said simply, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone".

Kelly Stenglein Yes I have seen them, thanks. However, I still have to disagree with Borg on this one.

Gina Kreutter  First readers of the law read the Tanach, they did not yet have the words of Jesus. Then along he came and because of him, the New Testament - the New Covenant. Not to replace, but to fulfill. Because of this, we can read scripture through the lens of Jesus. That lens encourages, nudges and challenges us as we read. Perhaps it is not either/or, rather both/and. It seems a big 'AND'...with much to consider and come to understand. If it was possible for Jesus and the bible to be side by side, perhaps it would be easier to imagine choosing. Borg sums it up well. Jesus trumps all.

David Whitlock Just keep in mind, Moses said, "throw the stone", Jesus said, " he without sin throw 1st stone"

Rev-Wendy Wolf:  Jesus trumps the Bible!

David Whitlock: Thanks, Rev.

Steve McSwain: Always!

David Whitlock: Thanks, Steve . . .

Linda Phillips Richard: A house divided against itself cannot stand. There has to be a better way to say "Jesus trumps the Bible." It sounds self contradictory to me. Not that the Bible is God- but what we know of Jesus we know from the Bible. I agree with Robin Whitlock Borg is postulating a straw opponent.

Rev-Wendy Wolf: Now that I have a minute to respond. This is my perspective:The bible is not meant to be the Final Word. The bible is not the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Light, the Love of God. The bible shows us, over and over, folks who walked with God, who heard from God, who followed God. And calls us to do the same! The bible encourages the people of God to have a real-time relationship, with the Living God!
The bible is a finger pointing at the moon - it isn't About the Finger, it is ALL about the Moon! God did not get laryngitis 2,000 years ago. IMO, if we want answers, fellowship, healing, filling, leading - we Must go to our SOURCE.
I agree with Marcus Borg (whom I greatly respect, but who sadly misses the whole picture, now and then, IMO) when he says "When there is a conflict between Jesus and the Bible, Jesus trumps the Bible." But this is what I mean by that: GO TO JESUS - right here, right now. NOT the bible, Jesus. Jesus will show us the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Light, the Love of God - as he has done for those who open to him, for over 2,000 years.
Christianity has fallen down horribly and constantly, by focusing on intellectualizing about the bible. By focusing on doctrine and thought-beliefs - as if that were some kind of spiritual practice.
As if the bible could give us answers, fellowship, healing, filling, leading...The Bible Can Not Do This... only God can do this!
I pray, that instead of worshiping the bible, fighting about the bible, wasting time and energy focusing on the bible... Instead that Christians will begin to do for ourselves (and for All) what is most important: To Actually Open to Communication and Blessings, to the ONEness-with and Leading-of the Living God, with Jesus, with Spirit.
This is what set the world on fire in biblical times, and that is what does it every time!
WE want GOD!
People want GOD!
Let's set the table and enjoy the presence of God, on our own, and with All!
Let's be disciples of Jesus, not disciples of the bible. Let's follow Jesus, right HERE, right NOW, WHEREVER we are explicitly led - this is World Changing!
Let's enjoy the fruit of the Spirit, the Gifts of the Spirit, the Comforting of the Spirit - in All ways, alone and with All people!
If you don't know how, then find out.
If you do know how, then let's DO IT!
From my perspective, this is what the bible tells us to do.
So let's just do it: focus on the Moon, not the finger pointing.
Let's stop worshiping the Bible, and instead worship God!
Thanks for reading. Blessings All, in life, Wendy

Doug Asbury: If it were "worshiping the Bible," that would at least be better than what many people do today, which is "worshiping their own interpretations of the Bible, or the interpretations of others that they find appealing." It's one thing to follow our consciences, about which Martin Luther said, "to go against conscience is neither right nor safe." It is a completely different thing to claim that one's own preferred interpretation of scripture is the Final Word from God on a matter and needs to be heeded by everyone else, regardless of what their consciences tell them. The Apostle Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2.12). While we need to instruct one another in what we understand to be The Truth, once we have done so, we need to let the issue rest, "shaking the dust off of our feet as a testimony against them" (Luke 9.5).

Jeff Robinson: Much that is represented as being God - especially in OT, but also some in NT - on the literal surface reading does NOT align with that which we see and experience in Jesus. It requires some Spirit-guided rethinking to resolve. IMHO